{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/xg9f47jw3q/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Mama Sarahn Henderson: “Birth in the tradition”"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/699/original/Georgia_Dusk_Tagline_Primary_2x.png?1750685138","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2023-02-03"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Datricia Rollins (Interviewer)","Ashby Combahee (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eLocation: Birth in the Tradition Office\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Duration"]},"value":{"en":["01:05:15"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eLocation: Birth in the Tradition Office\u003c/p\u003e"]},"provider":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Georgia Dusk"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Georgia Dusk"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/699/original/Georgia_Dusk_Tagline_Primary_2x.png?1750685138","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/276/110/small/SHenderson24.jpg?1748887651","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - SHenderson_Oral_History.wav"]},"duration":3915.1064,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/276/110/small/SHenderson24.jpg?1748887651","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-georgiadusk.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/276/110/original/SHenderson_Oral_History.wav?1748887626","type":"Audio","format":"audio/wav","duration":3915.1064,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Mama Sarahn Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson: Birth in the Tradition\n\nFebruary 3, 2023\n\nInterviewed by Dartricia Rollins and Ashby Combahee\n\nCitation: Henderson, Mama Sarahn. “Birth in the Tradition.” Interviewed by Ashby Combahee \u0026 Dartricia Rollins. 3 February 2023, Georgia Dusk: a southern liberation oral history, georgiadusk.com.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=0.0,2.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nMy name is Ashby Combahee and I am here with Dartricia Rollins. We are interviewing Mama Sarahn, for Georgia Dusk: a southern liberation oral history project. Today is Friday, February 3rd, 2023. And we are conducting this oral history at the Birth in the Tradition office in Atlanta, Georgia. You have been asked to participate in Georgia Dusk an oral history conducted by Ashby Combahee and  Dartricia Rollins. The project is partnered with the Spelman College archives, which is a component of the Women's Research and Resource Center, founded by iconic Black feminists, Dr. Beverly Guy Sheftall, in which serves to document the experiences of contemporary Black feminist scholars, activists and cultural workers. The purpose of Georgia Dusk is to gather and preserve firsthand narratives of organizers and cultural workers who have a connection to Georgia and who are part of the Southern Freedom Movement. The oral history interviews provide elements of history that are often not apparent in traditional archival documents, or provide, or and dominant media. Interviews enable participants to reclaim the narrative and historical representation of liberation movements throughout Georgia. When used with other research materials, oral histories helped to provide a more holistic view of history. Mama Sarahn, you have been invited to participate in this project due to the prominence of your work in midwifery. Mama Sarahn, you have been invited to participate in this project due to the prominence of your work in midwifery. Midwifery is an important tradition to the community and to the ushering in and sustaining of life and we believe it is important to the Reproductive Justice framework, especially the right to have a child. And so with all of that, can you please introduce yourself by saying your name, pronouns, age, and your work in the field of reproductive justice?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=2.0,111.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nSure, hi, I am Mama Sarahn, Sarahn Henderson. And I go by the pronoun pronouns, she/her. And I live here in Atlanta, Georgia. And I am forty...hmm, I'm 66 years old.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=111.0,137.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee \n\nWonderful, thank you. So when we do these oral histories, a question that we'd like to start everyone off with is who do you dedicate this oral history too?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=137.0,146.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nOkay, so I dedicate this oral history to anybody who has the, the ear to hear the midwifery movement, childbirth customs, childbirth practices, people who are advocates for birth, birthing naturally birthing normally, home birthing. People who are interested in hearing some of the challenges that Black women face, in their pregnancy, as it relates to their prenatal care, their birth, some of the challenges that midwives face, serving as midwives, particularly here in Georgia, and those people who want to who want to take some of what I have, and build on whatever it is that they are striving to make changes for. I'm just one part of our movement, there was a movement that pre existed before that was here before I was, you know, doing the work. And there's still a lot of work to be done. And so to pick up, I guess, kind of like what I'll be doing in this interview is giving information to pass the baton for someone to take it and you know, build on it. Make some improvements on our reproductive rights and our justice as mothers and as midwives as community birth workers as as pillars in the community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=146.0,270.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nThank you for that. So a little bit of background. Can you tell us like where are you from? And what's your relationship to the state of Georgia?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=270.0,280.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nOkay, so I am I was born in California. And I was raised in various parts of the United States. I grew up in Hawaii with the intention of coming back back to Atlanta to re-root myself to my family roots. So my bit of growing up was, and traveling was due to my father's career. But my parents are originally from here. And so when, when I lived in Hawaii, and coming back for coming back here to Atlanta for like summer vacations and whatnot. We were coming back to family, we were coming back to grandparents, aunts, and uncles and cousins, you know, and whatnot. And so I always knew that I want to come back here to Atlanta, and re-root our family back here again, I came here to go to school in '75 I went to Clark College, which is now Clark Atlanta University. And, and, yeah, with the  intentions of establishing a family, and my career and being back home, but I consider home so I consider Atlanta my home because it's my my roots are here. In Georgia, even though my family bounced out for a little while, everybody eventually came back home, even my family came back home to Atlanta. And so that's my connection. My connection is, you know, rooted in family and friends. And I did go to school here for a couple of years in my, in my elementary school years. And so. And then there's the culture. You know, there's the culture. One of the things about me growing up is that I was always in an international community, no matter where I lived, I grew up in international communities, and international schools. And so whenever we'd come back to Atlanta for the summer break, and we would get in the car, and it's like, everywhere I looked, there was Black folks. And that's what I was missing growing up as being submerged around us. You know, even though I am an adaptable person, I adapted well, you know, living amongst other people, but I wanted to be with our people, you know, and so that was also the main drive to come back to Atlanta to be with family, coming back to Atlanta to be around Black folks. Coming back to a city that I knew that was on the rise. Back in the 70s. We were just beginning to rise. And I want to come someplace where it was promising. And I felt like Atlanta would be the place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=280.0,468.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee \n\nYeah, I think about Atlanta in that time period. And I'm curious if there like particular events, either like socially, culturally, politically, that you remember during your time here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=468.0,481.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nOh, yeah, for sure. So I lived here in 68, and 69. So you know, that was a time that Martin Luther King passed. And so that was very significant. My father, my father, grew up with Martin Luther King, they went to school together, they went to college together, they were raised on the same street together as children for a little while. So quite naturally, my grandparents knew his parents too. And so, you know, when Martin passed, my grandfather, made an effort to make sure that my brother and myself was in that long line that night, to view his body and to be there for his funeral service as well. And, you know, during that time too 68, and 69, that's when a lot of social changes were occurring too you know, during that time. You had the anti Vietnam War going on, you have the peace and love hippie movement going on, you the Black Power, Black Panther movement going on. And so, being here and, and listening to the news and seeing what's going on in the country, as well as what's going on here in the south. Is very clear, you know, in my mind, and interestingly enough, while all those things were being shook, you know, home birth was at the same time too, you know, and there was. Yeah, so I was I want to stop there. But that is an interesting thing to include that the whole movement of midwifery and reclaiming birth and bringing birth back to the family letting the husband's you know, be a part of the birthing process in the birthing room instead of in the waiting room. All that changes started occurring right around that time, too. And then through the early 70s, and that's when midwifery and home birth, started getting a little bit more play and a little bit more play until we got to maybe the mid-late 70s. And then that's where I came in, and other midwives started coming in on the scene as well popping up. And all of us believe this. And you can keep this in the history too. That, although midwifery in the south, was attempted to become a dying scientific art. Little did they know as when they were trying to eliminate us that seeds were being planted as well. And those seeds are us. And I believe that it's the ancestor midwives who came before us. That was yelling through the Earth, don't let this die out. You all are the ones that are going to help keep these babies alive and keep mamas alive. Do not let this die out, you all multiply. And, so that's what we've been doing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=481.0,704.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nSo having had, you know, all these different experiences in childhood growing up in different parts of the country, what was it about the South? I mean, you talk about this tradition, what was it about Georgia, doing midwifery here, what was significant?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=704.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nBecause, the... it's rich here. It's rich in the south east, you know, during the slave trade, they brought all of our ancestors to the south east, you know, Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, places like that. And a lot of our history is steeped in culture and tradition that has not been erased, it needs to be remembered. Because a lot of people have forgotten. But there is so much richness that's in here. For one thing when I when I started researching. When I started researching Midwifery, the reason why I started researching it is because each of the books was not, which was not very many. But each of the books that I read, either in the preface, or either in the foreword or either in the introduction when they were introducing Midwifery, it didn't speak to our history. It was always the European history. Nothing about our history. And my mother who was born at home, and her mother, and her mother and her mother and her mother. I was like now, we've got to have some history, because we were not allowed in their hospitals. And I'm right here in Georgia. And so having this yearning to know our history, and I think that's the thing with any profession, people like to know the history of their profession. I wanted to know the history of our profession. And being a feminist myself, I really wanted to know, I don't want to know their history. I already know their history. I want to know our history, because I knew our history was unique. Just by the way we arrived over here, you know, and the conditions that we had to live in. And so, after, oh, there's a documentary that was put together back in 1952, called All my Babies, have you seen All my Babies?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=720.0,867.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nI've heard of it, but I've never seen it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=867.0,867.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\n It's on YouTube. Check it out. Because that's our history too, right here in Georgia, Albany, Georgia. So one day a midwife called me a fellow midwife called me up and told me that there was going to be a documentary that was going to be showin' at the library down on Ponce de Leon. And she thought that I'd be interested in seeing it, about black midwives, so I was like, okay, so I got in my car and went on down there. When I saw it, I just sat on the edge of my seat. I was like, I can't wait to get home. I can't wait to go home. I can't wait to get home. So I can find this lady that they were featuring on here. I was like, that's my history right there. And so soon as I came home, then I contacted the main hospital in Albany, Georgia. And I told them that I was interested in knowing if Miss Mary Cooley was still living. And she said, No, you missed her about four years she passed away. So I told her that I was intent, intending to write a book and I want to do have a collection of stories, Granny midwife stories. And she referred me to somebody in the health department down there in Albany. So I called the next morning. And she said, everything that you need to know is going to be where you're in Atlanta at the health department. So I called the Health Department here in Atlanta. So then that person said, everything that you want to know about Georgia from the time Oglethorpe arrived here is at the archives just go to the archives. That's okay. So for years, I spent time in the archives, digging through their boxes in their vaults of all kinds of history, of black midwives, I saw listings of those that were probably long gone, and where they lived, what counties they lived, how many babies they delivered. I narrowed it down to those who I thought would still be living just by looking at their birthdays. And then I call them each one by one. And set, you know, told them what I wanted to do. That I was interested in meeting them and capturing their stories. And then... set dates. And so when I saw that there was so much culture and tradition wrapped around birth, here in Georgia, not that there was just granny midwives that were still living, that can share their wealth of knowledge and experience with me. But I was able to also hear the stories of the older ones who remember when things were changing, when the laws were changing, and how midwives were being forced to, you know, retire, or they weren't allowed to renew their licenses and how it was being dwindled down to. And I'm the only midwife that's practicing now, and I only do a couple of births a year. But so then that started my quest. In what happened, you know, what happened to make our women, so many of our women, all of our women, and I'm talking about like, my grandmother's era. So my grandmother, I will say she was born in the early 1900s. Because my mother was born in 1930, 30, 30, 36, I think, yeah. So it's like my grandma's generation. And that next generation, what made all those women now, so having their babies in the hospital? So I wanted to research that. And so there's, you know, so much politics that's in midwifery, and birthing, that it just made my scope of needing to, to be here and research as much as I can, to teach and to educate. And when I say to teach, and to educate, basically, really what I'm doing is just trying to normalize birth again, normalize it, keep it natural, keep it normal, you know? Yeah. So I think you’re getting at a lot of the context of what's happening, like, historically, which is in your research. And I also know that that time period where you're entering into birth, into Midwifery, and the 70s, up until the 80s, that we also, you know, in our research saw a good bit of convenings happening about Black woman's health, and it seemed like conversations were a lot more direct about the state of maternal health, particularly for Black woman in Georgia. So I'm curious if you can give us a little bit more of the you mentioned, you know, your father, father's having a more vital role in birth practices. What was it like to come into this work, you know, in that part of the century in the 60s in the 70s. What was the what was the attitude toward midwifery at that point? That's a good question. So let me make it clear. My I started opening up to birth and midwifery in the 70s, I gave birth to my first child, in '79, and he was a home birth with my midwife. And then in 80, that's when I stepped into midwifery. Okay, so it's still 70s, you know, 80. So back then, it was really interesting. I felt like then, as still somewhat, in a sense today, I feel like we're little Harriet Tubman's. You know, because Harriet Tubman believed in freedom. And she was willing to risk her life, you know, leading slaves to freedom. But she believed in that, you know, and because birthing at home wasn't something that I had to convince my family, because both my mother and my father were born at home, so it was still in the norm. Okay, because I didn't have to worry about that. But my clients did. You know, my clients did, especially if they have parents that were not born at home, you know, so having to coach them into, you know, massaging the idea of them having their babies at home, for their parents comfort as well. That was really interesting. It was kind of scary, when we would have to do transports. And the paramedics would come and it was fresh for them. They've never had to come and rescue people not unless, you know, it's an incidental, like the lady that had the baby on the highway the other day, you know, otherwise, it felt like, we were being interrogated, you know, what's going on? And who are you? Is there a midwife here? So we had to, we were always like, Nope, there's no midwives here, you know, we were really protecting ourselves, because we didn't know what kind of ramifications we get from it? So we had to deal with that, then they're much better now. Because they're used to it, you know, they're accustomed to it now. So they're much better, much, much better. And otherwise, the attitude in general is, why are you doing that? You know, isn't that risky? Isn't that against the law? Aren't you afraid of something happening? And I'm not, you know, yeah, every birth is not, is not the ideal, perfect, birth. We all know that we all know that all babies don't come here just to survive either to live through birth, okay. But at the same time, you can't be a midwife, and live in fear. Otherwise, you can't be a midwife. You know, because you'll be always you'll always be bringing that to the birth. And that doesn't go hand in hand. Most people that I know of who enter into Midwifery, they enter because they had a call. Okay. That call could come from many different ways some of feel that from when they were younger, they took care of pets and took care of little children and just and just want to, you know, continue on to nurture women through childbirth and whatnot. And the people received callings other ways. Back in the days granny midwives would either teach their daughters, you know, it'd be passed down from mother to daughter from mother to daughter, or the midwife might, you know, recognize somebody in the church that had, you know, a keen sense of intuition and companionship and can listen, and she might even solicit that person, you know, to, to shadow with her. So, you know, we have this, this little gray cloud, but we learn how to live under this gray cloud, just like Harriet, learned how to travel the swamps in the woods, with slave catchers and dogs, you know, right behind her. You just keep moving. You just keep moving because you know, that this is for better good. And that you are doing God's work, you know, and so keeping that in the forefront, you know, is our guiding light. But more so, parents being questioned, why are you doing this? When there's hospitals, where you don't have to do that, we didn't have no choices back in the days, so it's helping parents, you know, to get their, their family comfortable with the idea more so than me, you know kind of backlashes and whatnot, I don't get back lashes, but you know that I do know that I live in a state where midwifery is not a licensed professional, I do know that. But I spend, I don't spend so much time worrying about that. I spend time being proactive with that, but not being in fear. You know, instead, relaxing the family because a lot of times moms have this invisible umbilical cord that still connects them with their mother. And even though they are adults, young adults or whatever, they still want the approval of their parents when they say, but we're going to have our baby at home. Whattttttt? What are you gonna do that for? And so I tell em, I say to them, I say, look, first, remind them that Black women have been having their babies in the hospital for really little less than 100 years. When you consider how many years we've been on this planet, that's just a drop of time. Have your mother to remember, because that's all we need to do is remember, you don't have to go that far back it depends on. I didn't have to go that far back. Because now I'm 66 Maybe these younger women who are in their 20s, and they're having babies and whatnot, they might have to go back to their great, great, great grandma, you know, or their great grandmother. You know, to remember, that this is something that we used to do. But it's not that far from our memory. It's not far from our DNA memory. When parents tell their parents what they're intending to do. They know that we used to do this, you know, and to help them to remember how, how natural how normal, it was back then. And and then I send them off to Ricki Lake. Have you seen Ricki Lake's documentary? The Business of being Born. So I refer them to that documentary. Because that documentary, what Ricki did was, she saw the conditions of birthing in the United States. And she wanted to open the eyes to people to see what birthing in the United States is today, and how it has evolved to becoming a business, you know, that a lot of times, parents have no control over of their pregnancy or their birth, you know. And but she takes you through an evolution of what birth was like, back in the days, and then she brings you up to date. And I have my parents to watch it and share that documentary with their parents, so that they can think about what shaped their attitude about birth in the first place. And then they realize it's what they see in the media, it's what they hear women, countless women, time after time talk about their birth experiences in the hospital. And when they realize that, well, my goodness, my great grandmother was a midwife, and she did deliver all of her grandchildren, as well as everybody that was in the community and everybody has a thriving community, you know. They usually get back on, they get on board and support. But a lot of times what women have to do, and their partners have to do is be living examples, you know, to remind their family, not just their parents, but their siblings, their friends, their colleagues, that birth can be natural and normal birth is not a high risk situation with a disaster waiting to happen, you know? And so, you know, our country causes women to be fearful throughout their pregnancy. They always afraid of something because doctors always saying something that scares them. And Pregnancy is a time where you should be enjoying this part of your life. This is a milestone, you know, in your life, to be able to conceive, everybody's not able to conceive, to be able to create and grow and nurture this baby, something that you should be able to look forward to, as opposed to live in fear of. And so yeah, what was the question?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=867.0,1831.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nI mean, you got to so many more than the question. So I'm grateful for your response. I mean, the question was like, what was the what was the attitude around midwifery when you were entering midwifery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1831.0,1843.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nYeah, it was like a shock. People were shocked. They don't realize that midwives even existed anymore. They didn't even realize that people still had... and even today. \"People still have all births.\" You know, they didn't realize it. So it was new. It was green, even though there are still a few granny midwives that were still practicing in the rural areas. Here. It was, like fresh, it was fresh. It was, people were intrigued by it. People were impressed by it. And they were bewildered. They're like, wow, really? Because it's so fresh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1843.0,1887.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nSo Georgia, we know is a state, as you mentioned, like that is both hostile to midwives as a practice hostile to home births. What, what does it look like also to be a midwife in a state that has the worst maternal mortality rates the highest? And how do you see midwifery intervening in these high mortality rates?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1887.0,1911.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nYes, sad. So Georgia, yes. So first question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1911.0,1922.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nLet me read what I put on here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1922.0,1925.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson \n\nLet's do one question at a time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1925.0,1929.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nWhat issues do you face as a black midwife in a state that is hostile to home births and midwives as a whole?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1929.0,1934.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nWell... [spins her chair and points out the window] when I'm pointing, I'm pointing at the Capitol. And yes, it's not easy, it's not easy living in a state where midwifery and home birth is hostile. The biggest disadvantage to it is that we don't get the support of doctors. You know, if we went back in history with the granny midwives days, it was each county's responsibility to train granny midwives and give them their little black bags. And to set them off to being midwives. They were responsible for filing birth certificates and all that. And they had the backup of the doctor and the nurse, you know, and so whenever there, if mother's mother's needed prenatal care, they would go to the doctor and get their prenatal care. As long as the mother was, well, I'll take that out, she would give her prenatal care. If the mother ran into problems during the labor during the birth, then they can go and fetch for the nurse and the nurse can come maybe she'll bring an incubator, whichever. We don't have that support now, and that's our greatest disadvantage is that we don't have the support of doctors. If we lived out in the west, Washington, Oregon, California, Florida, other places where midwifery is a licensed profession, then you would have backup doctor. What makes a cohesive team for a mother would be her doula for support. Her midwife and a doctor, a doctor because we are not nurses, or doctors. We can't send moms off to get their labs and to get the ultrasounds. We can't go into the hospital, we know that she needs to go to the hospital and continue delivering. That's not us. Okay. That's what the doctors for. And so if a mother has that then she's got a good security net. So for that, what if then there's a doctor that we can go to or hospitals that we can go to where the doctor who she's also been seen by can then take over and do what he or she does best. You know, I believe that there is a purpose for hospitals. And there is a role for OBGYN's. I also believe that everybody doesn't need to have a home birth. And everybody doesn't need to have a hospital birth either. You know, I think that those women who are low risk, they're healthy, we're not anticipating any problems at all. They should be able to have the freedom to birth at home with who they want to birth with. And ideally, it's somebody that is a part of their community, because people like working with people who look like them, you know. And we don't have that there's like one or two doctors in the entire state of Georgia, that will support home birth. They won't support Midwifery, because midwifery is not licensed here. So they can't back us up. Like in those other states, the midwives have their backup doctor, you know, but they can backup the families because it's not illegal to have a home birth, you know. And so that's probably one of the biggest challenges is just not having that support. How do we get that support? By changing laws by changing policies, you know, legislation, legislators are in session right now. And we have a bill that I think is dropping today. I don't know if you will put that in there, though. See that on the Senate side, or either on the House side, I'm not sure which one it is going to be on either side. But a lot of times, when a lot of times those legislators are OBGYN's themselves, you know, they're doctors and so they have a hard lock, they got a lock down, AMA, insurance companies, doctors, the pharmaceuticals. They're all in it together. And it makes it very difficult for us. What's ideal is if I'm the midwife and you're the OBGYN, and she's the mother, ideally, I can call you up and confer with you about what I discovered at her prenatal today. Can you check on that? Can I send her into your office today, so that she can get her labs done, so she can get an ultrasound? So you can, you know, cross reference to what it was that I experienced with her today? And we don't have that. And that's what we need.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=1934.0,2268.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nSo on the other end of that question was, you know, Georgia's maternal mortality rates? And so how do you see midwifery intervening?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=2268.0,2283.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nYes. So in part of my research, back in the days, most of my research at the, in the archives and whatnot, was pretty much during the 80s. I continued doing going out into the field, interviewing what midwives I heard about, they're still living, you know, through the 90s, and whatnot. But by 2000s, they had all, you know, passed on. In it part of my research back then, though, I was also looking at the maternal and the infant mortality rates. And I was like, wow, I think back then the infant mortality rate was within the top five in the nation, highest. And the maternal mortality rates, I'd have to look back on what it was, it wasn't as bad as it is today. Back in the 80s, when I was studying it. And so I guess I started hearing more about George's maternal mortality rate, maybe about eight years ago, seven, eight years ago, and I'm like, Why is nobody talking about this? You know, nobody is saying, Why is it just the grassroots people hearing this? I know, they know, but nobody's saying anything about this. It should be on the billboards. You know, how to have a healthy pregnancy, and whatnot. And, um, and then, as these years got closer to where we are right now, then it was like, Okay, I made a call. I made a call. I forgot who interviewed me, but I was like, I want this call to go out across the United States that we need more Black midwives and we need Black more Black doulas. And boy did they pop up, I think, every woman in Georgia must be a doula. And that was to put women in place on the ground. So that we can work in the ground and do the FUBU thing doing for us by so that we can create changes ourselves. If they're not going to make any changes, then we have to bring the changes ourselves. First, by bringing the awareness that our mamas are dying in the hospital, and why? You know, and so. So, finally, the word got out, you know, finally, the word got out, got out really, really good. So it's, you know, it's national, known. Kamala [Harris; Vice President of the U.S.], you know, has even spoken about it, you know. And so it makes me angry that our mortality rates in Georgia, run neck to neck with Louisiana, and whomever else. First place, who wants to be who? And Black women in particular, have a higher disproportionate, you know, rate amongst Black women compared to white women, Hispanic women, others? And it's like, Why? Why is it that black folks always have to have the, you know, have that worst outcomes of everything. And now, why birth, we live in a city where you have hospitals that are made available. You have one major hospital that was caring for many women of Fulton County, that closed down [Atlanta Medical Center]. And then you have other counties in different parts of Georgia, where there are hospital deserts, where women don't have access to prenatal care, you know, and we need more midwives. If the doctors don't want to be in those areas to serve those women, then we need more midwives, you know.  And so when I think about that, then when I think about what we've done, not only have we made an intentional effort, increasing the number of doulas, but we've also made an intentional about increasing the number of midwives as well. And interestingly enough, last year, the Atlanta Journal Constitution, had an article publicizing how, how home births in Georgia had increased by 29% during COVID. And COVID did something really interesting. It made women realize that home birth can be a safe alternative, after all, perhaps it's safer than going to the hospital, where this COVID where I have to wear a mask throughout labor, where my my partner can't be in the laboring room with me or in the hospital with me. You know, and so for those two years, those first two years of COVID, us midwives, we were busy. Midwives who were busy, got busier. Midwives who weren't busy, got busy, you know. And so, all of this is to say, you know, and the doulas role is to protect the mother, you know, especially in the hospital, she serves like an advocate not only offering support, but also as an advocate. And then midwives those people that are choosing have their babies at home because there are a lot more people choosing to have their babies at home. ordinary folks, not just your dreadlock hippie Birkenstock you know, vegetarian, who that used to be appealing to that was the audience before now it's any and everybody. And so I find that a lot of us what we're doing now is is doing a lot of educating, a lot of educating a lot of educating on how to take care of yourself, you know, because see one of the things one of the defaults that happen when they, when they, they who, when the state when Congress created this act to the Shepherds Towns Act to eliminate, the elimination of the midwife was like the undercurring reason, although they didn't make it look like it so to speak, but they made it look like having your baby in the hospital, the doctor was safer and cleaner, more sterile, you know. And so you know how we can be sometimes think that white folks have is better than what we have. And so consequently, what started happening was that our grandmothers and great grandmothers were like, Oh, they have their babies in the hospital, and we can now have our babies in the hospital. That's what we'll do. But what started happening over those, but that generation and the next generation is that the mother witness typically passed down from mother to daughter, how to take care of yourself during your pregnancy, what to eat, what not to eat, what taboos there are got lost. How to prepare for birth, how to birth, all of that got lost because of that transition. You know, when women started birthing in the hospital, then they started experimenting on us as well, you know, given us twilight, spinal blocks. So it erased the memory of childbirth because mothers didn't experience childbirth or labor, because they were anesthetized or out of it, you know. And, so the dialogue and the teaching that goes on from mother to daughter got lost. And so that's where we're picking up we're picking up where, and it's not the grandmother's fault. So the great grandmother's fault, they don't know what they don't know, you know. And so what we're doing is just doing a lot of educating how to eat properly, because see, when we look at the maternal mortality rates, and you look at that list of what's causing the mothers to transition, there are some things that the mothers can do themselves to keep themselves off that list. The other part of the list is what they do, interventions. And a lot of times the interventions that they do changes the course of labor, end up having c-sections, mothers get sepsis, or bleed out, and they..., whatever. So there's things that go on in the hospital that we don't have control over. But there's some things that moms do have control over if they have the proper guidance. So when you think of some things like preeclampsia, that can take a mama out, diabetes, hypertension, all these things can occur during the course of the pregnancy. And sometimes it's due to stress. Sometimes it's due to poor nutrition sometimes it's stress and nutrition all combined. That will have a mama that that might succumb to some problems if she's not properly guided. The difference between well today you have childbirth education classes that everybody doesn't always take. Back in the days. You didn't have childbirth education, childbirth educators, and you didn't have doulas. But you did. They were the women that were in your community. They were the women that were at the church. They were all they were the ones that would tell you don't eat this. Don't eat that and make sure you drink plenty of this tea and that so you had community you had the women in the community that supported the mother that made sure that she was whole and healthy. And we just have so many distractions that we have we have too many distractions that lend to the disparities that women are experiencing that inhibits them from having the healthiest pregnancies from your Mc Donald's your Burger Kings Zaxby's, your Kroger's your Piggly Wiggly that have fake foods in them. And preservatives and fillers. It's not food food. You know? We think about our mothers back in the day, where there were no Piggly Wiggly's and Kroger's they ate from the earth. Every year they're planting and harvesting or bartering with their neighbors for chickens and some beef or whatever for whatever vegetables they have everything that they ate was whole, whole foods, the real Whole Foods, and our women are not getting whole foods now. They're door dashing food and or Ubering eat foods and who knows what's in the restaurants. Cooking, you have as a mother that's already been word line hypertensive, they might be putting a lot of salt in her food, and she doesn't need all of that, you know. So you have a lot of distractions that distract mothers from and from a healthy pregnancy. And if we can keep mothers healthy, and eating correctly, and just having a healthy lifestyle, then we're helping even just one woman at a time. You know. And so it is a big challenge because Georgia does have a high maternal mortality rate. There are a lot of women who are choosing to have their babies at home, if it wasn't because of COVID it's because of Georgia's maternal mortality rates, and they don't want to be at the mercy of a doctor who they really don't know. And, and feel like they're risking their lives because they're not being listened to, or they're being dismissed. I always tell people our one example. Everybody knows Serena Williams, as Serena, if she did not know that she had a medical issue with blood clotting, that she may not be here now. But she empowered herself. And that's what we do, too, is we empower people, we empower people through knowledge, and accountability, okay. And she, she was empowered, because she already knew what her status was, and if she had not demanded their attention, you know, and there's a lot of women who are out there that don't have that guts inside of this is your life, you have to speak, you are your main advocate, you know, and that's what we teach women to choose to be advocates for themselves, you know, even if they're not having their babies at home, if we're having gatherings where they're pregnant women, no matter where their birthing destination is being empowered, know how to, you know, be comfortable for speaking for yourself, you know, if you don't want this intervention, you don't have to have this intervention. You know, before the 42 weeks was like, That's it. Okay. It's like between 40 between 38 and 40 weeks, that's your, that's term, that's full term. Now, today, they're telling women that if you hadn't had your baby by 38 or 39 weeks, we're going to induce you. So now what they've done is that they sabotaged her mind, and that's going to change her that has the potential of changing her birth plans because they said that if you hadn't had your baby by 38 or 39 weeks, we're gonna get this baby out. And sometimes I think that a lot of their decisions is based either on convenience, I'm talking about doctors either on convenience, so they can work a nine to five be off on weekends and holidays. But alive is also dictated by the malpractice insurance that they are connected with, you know. So we are busy. My, my flow of births, and I think everybody's flow of births. We have a steadiness. Whereas before it was like, Oh, I'm busy this month, not this month. I'm busy this month, not this month, now, everybody's busy every month. Sometimes with turning people away, because we're already booked for that month and people don't. People today have really they have to make reservations with the midwives, as soon as they find out, they're pregnant. Because now because of COVID. And because women are aware that Georgia is notorious with their maternal mortality rates. Now, the supply and demand of home births and midwives has switched. You know, where before there was more midwives, than there were home births, we were hoping to get more busier, more busy. Now we're turning people away, because there's not enough of us, there's not enough of us. And there's more women wanting to have babies at home. And women are realizing that birth is normal, it's natural, they realize that it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. And it might hurt for a few hours, several hours. And then you want to have your bundle of joy in your arms and get on with your life. You know, and they're willing to do that they're willing to they they realize they call on their ancestors. And they realize if my grandma did it, and her mother did it, I can do it. You know, so I'll be inconvenienced for a day laboring to get this baby down and out. But I can do that. And so there's more and more women that are doing it. And it's because of that Georgia's maternal mortality rate. So that's what's caused us to train more women and more women are becoming interested in midwifery for that very same reason, so that they can support women in our community. So that we can change our statistics, even if is one number at a time. So this is not necessarily with birth into in the tradition, but it kind of is.  So when COVID first came out, then my daughter, my youngest daughter was expecting at the same time, and with her first baby. We hiked. That was one of her prenatal fitness to go hiking. So she said, let's go hiking, and let's go hike for the rest of the pregnancy. Okay, so the first day we went out hiking, and we hiked with my oldest daughter and some of my youngest daughter's friends, she was like, let's take other people's take other pregnant people on hikes because everybody was bunkered in if you can remember, nobody was going anywhere. But if you got outside, you know, as I said, You know what, I think we can be on to something. So we created maternal wellness hikers, and maternal wellness hikers is addressing Georgia's maternal mortality rate. And the sole purpose of us creating maternal mortality, maternal well, what I called it, just why we decided to create in the creation of it, not only were they going to get the exercise, and the fresh air and the sunshine that they were lacking, because they were staying in the house. I said, let's make it so that we can teach as well. And this is not going to be just for home birth, this is going to be for any woman, any couple who wants to come out and get some fresh air, sunshine, ... and commune with other pregnant couples. And what we'll do is we'll invite a Black birth worker, to be our guest hiker. And, and our and that person is anywhere from another midwife talking about Midwifery, or whatever, it could be a lactation specialist talking about breastfeeding. It could be a nutritionist, a prenatal nutritionist that's coming in to talk about prenatal nutrition. It could be an herbalist that's coming to talk about herbs that are allies during pregnancy and helpful during birth and breastfeeding. And, and whatnot pregnancy. And prenatal yoga people, anybody that had anything to do with pregnancy and birth, who was Black, that can share some information that was going to open up some ears and eyes to people. That's who we invited one, hike at a time. And, um, and so the whole, so and since, the purpose was to get people out to get some exercise, and to connect Black families to Black birthing resources that are here in Atlanta that they may not otherwise been in touch with, had they not come on the hike to meet these people and hear what services that they are offering that's going to lend to their wellness. And that was the whole that's the whole purpose of maternal wellness hiking, is to is to empower people, through educating them giving them information that they can go home with, to connect with whoever the guest hiker was, yeah. And change the Georgia maternal mortality rates, one hike at a time! You know, but it was yeah, it was intentional to address that so that we can reach, it doesn't make sense just to preach to the choir. And so that's why we opened it up to people having the babies in the hospital with other doctors or other midwives, it didn't matter. I'm not here trying to make you have your baby at home with me because I'm busy enough. We're here to empower you and to educate you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=2283.0,3575.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nI think we should ask the last one. Okay, so last question we have for you is,  what does reproductive liberation look like to you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=3575.0,3602.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nLike everything that we're talking about, you know, lib first, liberating your mind, from the shackles of things that you've been taught, that keeps you that keeps you from knowing who you are. I'm gonna ask you to ask me that question one more time in a second, okay? Because after the prenatals, the months and months are coming in for prenatals, and after the birth is over with. Because see I want people to walk away with not just a baby, I really want people to walk away having learned a boatload of information that they can pass on to their daughters, so that the cycle doesn't continue on generation after generation. I want them to be empowered by their experience. And so when I come back after the birth and the week after and do a follow up with them, then I do ask them, What did you learn about yourself with this experience? Okay. And if they say keywords that I'm looking to hear, then I know that I've done my job. You know, so what was the question again?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=3602.0,3687.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nWhat does reproductive liberation look like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=3687.0,3689.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nSo, it's liberating their minds first, you know, liberating their minds, because a lot of women, they, they project, their pregnancy and birth by all the stories that they've heard from their friends and a lot of their friends have birth trauma. You know, and so even those women who've had birth trauma, then helping them to liberate themselves out of their head from that previous birth experience. You know, I tell them, I said, this is a whole new birth experience, liberate yourself from that experience, you're not going to have that experience, this baby is going to grow up to be a totally different person, than his siblings. Even if you have five kids, I have five kids, if you have five kids that come from the same mother and father, each pregnancy is going to be different just like they're gonna grow up to be different human beings, you know. And so liberating liberating the liberating. What was the question again?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=3689.0,3698.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ashby Combahee  \n\nReproductive liberation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110#t=3698.0,3758.0"},{"id":"https://georgiadusk.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3309/collection_resources/150115/file/276110/transcript/94386/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mama Sarahn Henderson  \n\nYeah. And so, exercising the freedom, exercising the freedom to your own reproductive health and your own reproductive rights. You know when I say these, it's like the system you know, it's like the systemic kind of thing. It's like they want to have so much control over the autonomy of our bodies. Whether we keep a baby, whether we have a baby at home, whether we continue to have children we need to be making that decision for ourselves. You know, and yeah. When I think when I think about when I think about liberating birth it's it's for that same reasons it's choosing to birth your baby where you feel most comfortable, whether it's home or whether this hospital. How, whether it's vaginally whether cesarean because some people do choose cesareans too. And and with who. Some people don't want doctors some people don't want nurse midwives because they practice under doctors and doctors practice according to their malpractice insurance. So they all practice the same. And and they may choose to want to have a holistic birth experience, pregnancy experience, and choose to have a midwife. So you know, liberating when I think of liberating, I'm just thinking I think of just being free have that freedom, you know, to choose for yourself what's right for you. And I don't believe that other people should choose what's right for you. 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